(from an IM conversation with one of my best friends yesterday, because it was an interesting discussion, rather insightful, and i wanted to share it with y'all... excuse spelling and grammatical shortcuts):
me: i HAD good biz on saturday morning
the immature jerk... the honest stuff comes out when they've been drinking and then they go running for the scaredy little hills when more sober.
i'm too awesome... i'm tired of hearing that
her: what happened?
me: we met out... spent nine hours talking about all kinds of amazing things... made out...slept over.. sex didn't happen til the morning... he stayed til noon, we napped, ate breakfast. he said 'we have our numbers, we'll make it happen'... then nothing since then
no HI, no so glad i met you etc
deflating
her: no shit
me: like
i haven't a conversation that amazing in YEARS
her: did he say something that would make him freak out?
like "omg, i just showed i'm vulnerable, can't call ever again"
me: totally
her: that's redonk
me: yup
like it's MY fault that you like me and therefore i should be punished
her: this might be a stupid question, but are you going to call him?
me: i'm not sure
her: if he's really scared, i doubt he's trying to punish you
me: i might... in a few days. one last ditch effort.
her: more like running away cupping his balls
me: yeah
it still makes me really sad though. i'm tired of this reaction
it's one big rollercoaster
her: i know
i understand
me: like what is so inherently bad about me, then men dont seem to like after one day?
will i be alone forever?? maybe... maaayyyybe
her: well... i don't think you're bad or they're bad
i think you're ready and they're scared
me: yeah i spose... all these years of me being a chickenshit, and now that i'm ready... THEY're all chickshits
her: i don't know why or how it happened, but "men" in our generation will avoid responsibility at ALL COSTS
me: its true
how did that happen and why?
her: i have theories, but that doesn't mean anything
mostly it's a poor example they've learned from
me: well i usually like your theories
id believe that
her: and the fact that we women and our feminist tendancies have decided it's a GOOD thing to take up all the slack
me: which i do NOT think is a good thing
her: men are no longer being good providers, so women got back to work
men are no longer being protectors so we protect ourselves
me: this makes me want to cry
i'm going to blog with your insight btw... that's very smart
her: men are no longer being good fathers, so we're inseminating ourselves, marrying other women, making sex a "physical need" instead of part of a companion relationship
it's just completely backward
we WANT chivalry from individual men, but culturally we expect men to get the hell out of the way, treat us as 'equals'
no wonder they're confused
me: seriously
her: personally, i think feminism is the saddest, most tragic development in modern culture
it's our own damn fault
feel free to chime in on this...
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22 comments:
Well.... this is a great convo.... and "she" is right. I'm going to be ridiculous and make an "Outlander" reference here...though you're likely the only one that totally knows what I mean.... we can be strong and still be subordinate once in a while.... and though that's an awful word, which people are going to completely misconstrue, basically it means picking your battles and admitting wrong or weakness when it's appropriate. We NEED to feel protected...and yet defy every other principle that would result in us feeling that way....and I never quite thought of it that way. No wonder we're all (even us married folk) so fucking miserable. Holy mixed signals batman!! Thanks your friend again for her insight. Really. ;)
i absolutely know what you mean nattie. so who knows what i'm going to do...
i won't think about it, and hit the gym.
I. Totally. Agree. With. Her.
I asked Tim last night if he can recall the moment that he realized he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me.
His response:
When I realized that I could count on you to take care of me, and I had the desire to do the same for you.
Men want to be taken care of just as much as we want to be protected and cherished. Feminism teaches us that we don't need men to do anything for us, and that it's an ugly thing to want to "do for a man".
great convo, agreed. ;)
so, you like it straight, right?
first, one issue could be the sex-too-soon thing... i know we're in the modern era etc, buuut, i stil believe that if the sex happens too soon one person or both parties don't 'respect' the other quite the same... it changes a good potential into a good night...
second, 'her' said women have decided it's a good thing to pick up the slack these days... but you know what? in one way or another women have always HAD to pick up the slack. the real difference, as i see it, is now we complain about it. what type of slack we used to pick up compared to now is definitely different, but slack is slack, really...
and you know what? the slack women pick up now is not cuz men suck... women went to work more and more a) because they WANTED to, and b) because the economy and all the stupid shit people like to spend money on require a 2-income household... neither of those 2 reasons are just men's fault. picking up the slack is part of the delicate balance between a man and a woman...
i actually see men being much BETTER fathers these days than back when my parents were starting to have kids... fathers are more involved in their kids lives, change diapers, give baths etc etc.
the real issue is the state of marriage and just simple committment in america... people change intimate relationships like they change cel phones. they don't value the hard work and compromise it takes to make a relationship work. and i think it's just as much women's fauilt as mens... women do want it both ways, they want to have their cake and eat it too... and that's really hard to accomplish...
oh, getting back to picking up the slack and how that relates to YOU... just fucking CALL HIM. that's one thing i've never understood about women of the 'modern era'. why do they wait for the man to call them? for all they know the man is sitting at home wondering why YOU haven't called THEM and getting all upset etc etc. cuz listen, women are much more agressive about speaking their minds and baring their souls and having the sex... but then after the date they decide it's HIS job to be the one to call. SOOOOO SILLY! call him. now. i'm not saying by calling it will make it work out. i'm just saying pick up the phoooooone...
muah!
i already did kk... and i've gotten a 'that could work' in response to my trying to make plans for this weekend. half hearted responses make me ill.
love YOU though.
gotcha. i think it's still worth a try, and next date without the sex...
i'm sticking to my sex-too-early theory...
love you too!!!! ;)
Well now, as a man with a lot of responsibility as a father, protector, provider, I have to say that I am once again dissapointed in the "set a poor example" guy... I swear we're not all dipshits, and I know there are plenty of us left out there in the world. Don't Give up hope my friend...
and I think going forward you need to remind "Her" that there are awesome guys like "Me" that had great examples and lessons taught through childhood and into adult life that make us awesome Men to our better halves =)
Cheers, see you in 45 days or so, eh!
I have to say, I agree with the sex too soon thing ... I actually wanted to talk to you about that last night but there was obviously no moment for it. I have only come to realize that hard truth recently, when I really thought we were in an era where the double standard was gone. But it's not, and SO MANY men, even good ones, still think that women they would want to be in relationships with won't have sex on the first date, even though they have no problem doing it. It's super frustrating, especially when we're not 22 anymore, and it's like, dude, you're not the first guy I've slept with so don't even start the fantasy. And I have to disagree with the call him thing ... again, a generalization but one that has come to be a common experience of mine. If he's into you, he'll call you. And if he's sitting at home wondering about it, then he doesn't want you bad enough. And wouldn't you rather wait for someone who wanted you bad?
ryan... you are a constant reminder that the real deal does exist. and believe me, you and j are so lucky to have each other.
kk and m - i don't think either of you have ever met nina. my drunk and completely physical alter ego. ive gone a semi decent job of supressing her... but every now and again, the little weasel gets out there and socializes. when she gets bored.. shit happens.
i'm almost thirty years old, and although i'd like to play that coy little game where i give you a smooch on the cheek and wait three days to call you or express any interest in you... i just can't pull it off. i hate games, and i almost refuse to play them. i am a raging hormone.. and as i get older, it just keeps getting worse. i KNOW nattie would back me up on that one.
so as much as i say, yes ladies, i know what you're saying, i'm trying to keep the sex too soon slutbag nina under wraps... sometimes i really just want her to get some ass.
and i guess i have to remember that if nina is getting ass, dactyl isn't getting dates.
alas.
(p.s. i effing LOVE you guys!)
who is this person?? they are brilliant.
No offense to Karen K, but that's bullshit --- just because we want to work doesn't mean we should have to do ALL the work.
It's not about having our cake and eating it too --- and if I'm baking cake after cake, dammit, I deserve to fucking eat some.
There is such a thing as equal partnership (or at least mostly-equal partnership), and just because we dare to want to have careers and be in the work-world doesn't mean we have to settle for a complete reversal of 50s-roles.
The key is what the other Karen said --- taking care of EACH OTHER.
Sorry. Touched a nerve.
Can I just say that I think the sex to soon thing is a load of BS. Really. We are grown woman. Assuming we are single, if we want to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with us... what's the problem? It's actually almost a good test of whether or not they'll play games in the end. Because really...they had sex on the first date, too. I think the sexual playing field should be a level one. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
And did someone say HORMONES? I totally hear you. They are a force to be reckoned with for sure.
Milady Dactyl,
I am guilty of said infraction. But not all men are heels, or deserve an Achilles.
Stay in the garden, it's far more pleasant.
-p
I hear what Natalie is saying for sure, and I have always thought that too. My one long-term relationship came out of sex on the first "date" but we had been friends for awhile ... so I am still trying to figure it out. But I have also had the experience in the time since that relationship ended to begin dating guys after what should have been a one-night stand, only to find that these men were hesitant to take things seriously ... sure we liked each other, but we're just sex buddies that have a great time together right? Women are certainly not in the wrong here, it is a totally fucked up attitude, but still ... I think it is still there. And while we may need to hold out for the men that DON'T think this way, I still find it a pretty viable explanation for why some just don't call back ...
i've had great relationships start after early sex... i mean hey, i'd rather know up front how much work i'm going to have to put in to someone right? i'm funny. i know... but sometimes physical chemistry can be a big factor in whether or not a relationship can and will work.
i exist somewhere in the middle i think... i see both sides and enjoy NEITHER of them.
really, it's all a balancing act. give and take.... but not like that crazy fifty/fifty crap from the hub in joy luck club...what an ass! i'm glad that women have come this far, and for the most part are not viewed as mere property....well for the most part. we can own property, we have the option of working and supporting ourselves, we have the freedom to be choosy about who we want to share our lives with. that being said, i think in most cases, if you are looking to build a lasting relationship, sex too soon is something to avoid like a plague. yes, we are beasts...the lot of us, lol. and i know, i know the first thing you notice are the physical attributes of the opposite sex, there are exceptions to this as with every damn observation i make. however, if you are seeking something true and lasting.... the carnal appetite should be explored a bit later. isn't a woman's birthing machine beautiful? is it not awesome? i'm not trying to sound like a freaking coocoo bird, but really the snatch is special. it's part of a woman, thus what occurs to it physically will affect the woman within. the one who existed first...after all she is trapped in your body. sex can be so emotional, and to put yourself into that with someone you don't really know...why? first impressions...even 50th impressions can be so decieving. the other person should be worthy of you making yourself vulnerable. and likewise, for all those good fellows out there. sex is too damn casual now, it makes me sad. sex is not love...but it should be reserved for those you love. i've only enjoyed sex with two people. two in my whole life. and it wasn't about performance necessarily, though that does factor in. it's about whether you feel like a cut of meat from the butcher, or if you feel like someone's queen. you can be wearing your ugly tattered robe and be someone's queen. while someone down the way dressed in her designer duds...is still just a rump roast. i want to elaborate...because i'm certain there are holes in this....but seriously. i'm on a cleaning spree! love you beans.
i'm such a turd.... of course no one is meat. it's just a feeling i've had before... feeling like a roast, or something.... one day i'll learn how to speak.
here's what it is... i've got the answer:
the key is to not give any piece of yourself whatsoever to the douchebags. and however long it takes you to determine whether or not the young gallant is a douchebag... THAT is how long you should keep your panties on.
my doucheometer must be broken.
thank god it's broken, or you'd have your panties on for years.
i think saying that "sex on a first date is a bad idea" or "sex on a first date leads to him not being interested" is way, way too overgeneralized, blunt, and leaves out the nuances of what actually goes on in a burgeoning relationship. my weird, religious, well-meaning mother once tried to tell me that i should wait until i'm married to have sex (NB: i KNOW no one here is advocating that, so don't jump down my throat just yet) and when i asked her why, she spouted out the same afterschool special BS that so many say without thinking: that the gift of sex, of intimacy is something that needs to be treasured and saved. i both agree and disagree with that - intimacy, sure; sex, no sir. sex (btwn a man and woman) is the physical act of penetration of a woman by a man. THAT is the ONLY universal, across-the-board, applies-to-everyone thing about sex. all emotions and the rest that are tacked on are individual cases. so, like natalie said, the sex too soon thing is BS if you're the type of woman who can handle it. i reallllly don't think that the modern man makes the connection of "meet girl - have sex - forget about her" vs. "meet girl - don't have sex - still intrigued". because what THAT is implying is that the only reason he keeps being interested is for the possibility of sex. uh, great, can't wait to hang out with you again if all you're interested in is eventually tagging me.
just to play devil's advocate here, what would you say if this were a blog post by a man lamenting the fact that a woman who he thought was totally awesome and thought he really hit it off with ended up basically snubbing him? if the man pussies out, we women cry men-are-jerks! but if the woman decided she changed her mind, we call her empowered.
i have that battle with myself sometimes... you're enjoying the smoochipoo and you're getting that little inkling in your..err..belly. and i think to myself 'self... you should wait, because if it only happens once, then you have to add another name to your list, and then you'll feel bad about yourself (or not, if you're over 25 and just dont give a flying fubar... a la the dactyl)'... i mean HEY, i waited until the next morning.
arija makes an interesting point though... cuz she's sort of agreeing with me in that it depends on the woman.. and in that way it depends on the man too.
me and 'my list' will be over here high-fiving each other and writing really amazing books written from my sexually ridiculous (aka hilarious) past.
or something.
Well ladies (and gentlemen of course) this is proving to be a very fun topic!
I still stand by the fact that withholding sex for the sake of preserving intrigue is absurd. Along the lines of what Arija said, if it's true that withholding sex keeps us interesting, then it must also be true that that's ALL that makes us interesting. Like are you gonna keep your completely ridiculous and brazen sense of humor (I'm speaking for myself here... and quite likely Tara as well) under wraps until you get to know each other better? OF COURSE NOT. Because really, why would any of us want to be with a man if he can't handle us. If a guy is uncomfortable with having a sexual equal... NEXT!
Don't get me wrong (I'm relating back to my very first comment)...I'm not a total feminist POWER-to-women kind of girl. I've been a stay-at-home mom for 5 years, and though it wasn't necessarily as I planned it, I had no qualms in putting aside my own ambitions and taking on what might be viewed as a traditional role in my marriage. Why? Because it made sense. I am not my husband's equal where education and career is concerned, and I don't have any drive to prove otherwise by claiming total equality. It's not a man woman thing, it's a people thing. I only related this in case I was beginning to sound like some Amazonian man-eater where the sex is concerned. Moving on...
Point is, to each their own... and sex had inlove is OF COURSE magical and transcendent... whereas sex with a fresh aquaintance is typically an adult episode of "Romper Room".... but I've always been the kind of woman that wants both... and I had sex with my husband on the first date (read: beer run at a drunken college party where we pulled off on the way back and found a barn to screw in)...and he chased me for 2 years before I agreed to go out with him. He wasn't a game player, and he liked me...and knew full well that I was easy. But he still liked me. And it took me a while to realize that that was something. And it was.
And even later on, even with one's own husband, sex isn't always a wonderfully loving experience. Sometimes you want your hair pulled and your ass smacked. Sometimes I want to be a rump roast. Nuff said.
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